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"Cloven tongues"

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Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 220
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Posted May 25, 2006 at 6:45:48 AM
Subject: "Cloven tongues"
Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them [size=18][color=red]cloven tongues like as of fire[/color][/size], and it sat upon each of them. [size=12][/size] As I read the foregoing verses, a question kept on hounding my mind as to what God means with [color=red]"cloven tongues as of fire."[/color] I hope God will reveal to us the great message of this.
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cristinolese
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 122

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Posted: May 26, 2006 11:32:52 AM
I am reminded of “cloven hoops” for clean animals in the Old Testament that means “split hoops.” Could it be that “cloven tongues” means split tongues also? This does not look attractive,and causes blurred and indistinguishable words coming from the mouth. Is not Jesus Christ, the model of real believers, heard speaking this kind of language? Examples: Jesus said, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it,” that the Jews missed the meaning when our Lord referred to His body at His resurrection. Was not Nicodemus, a renowned preacher of the word, exposed of his spiritual ignorance when our Lord told him to be “born again?” He said, “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? ” Like the “eldest Son of God,” with their “cloven tongues” that symbolizes the “two witnesses” to the TRUTH: First witness – The “letter” of the word Second witness – The revelation of the Holy Ghost on the message of the “letter” of the word: 1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL. Like the Disciples at Pentecost, real Christians today are also speaking this “unique language” which is the SPIRITUAL LANGUAGE of God. Perhaps visitors to this website have noticed this “kind of language” with which we expressed the word of God and WITH MUCH POWER! Jer 23:29 [size=18]Is not my word like as a fire[/size]? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? [size=9][/size]
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Fastpitch
Joined Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 62
Location:Ohio

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Posted: Aug 14, 2006 10:52:12 AM
Sandra, in the original Greek, Acts 2:3 reads: "And there appeared unto them tounges parting asunder like as fire; and it sat upon each of them. The King James translation has injected the term "cloven tongues." We see at Pentecost the demonstration of mount Sinai of God's power. Esodus 19:18 reads: "And mount Sinai was altogether a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke therof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly." Here on Sinai we have signs and wonders as we see at Pentecost. After the signs and wonders of mount Siani, God gives the Israelites the Ten Commandments. "And all the people saw the thunderings and the lightenings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it they were troubled and stood afar off" (Deu. 20:18). What was the purpose of the signs and wonders of Sinai? God was declaring to the children of Israel that Moses was speaking for Him. God spoke to Moses: "mouth to mouth" (Numbers 12:6-8). God spoke "mouth to mouth" through His servant at Pentecost. Peter said to those there on this day who asked the question: "what does this mean?" (Acts 2:12). Peter, speaking through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said, "You men of Judaea, and all you that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you and harken unto my words" (Acts 2:14). What commandment did Peter give to these men after his message? How were these men to have their sins remitted? Note John 20:22-23 as to why Peter was delivering this message from the throne room of the KING. "then they that gladly received his (Peter's) words were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." "mouth to mouth." This is what Pentecost was about: God's voice was being declared by His messangers. The signs of Pentecost was to get the attention of His voice. There was a new commandment for men to have their sins remitted.

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author.

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sandra3102
Joined Jul 21, 2005
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Posted: Aug 14, 2006 11:12:53 AM
Subject: Amazing
Fastpitch, May I suggest you read a wonderful article on Pentecost, never before did I read or hear the great message from the priests and pastors I thought were apostles of Christ. It is in this website: [b]Pentecost and Cloven Tongues[/b] • Who among Christian denominations do not claim to know the Holy Ghost? • And who do not profess to have received the benefit of Pentecost from the Holy Ghost as the early Disciples did? http://www.purechristianity.org/index.php/news/Pentecost_and_Cloven_Tongues
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Fastpitch
Joined Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 62
Location:Ohio

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Posted: Aug 15, 2006 12:55:12 AM
Sandra, I read the article and I am not in agreement with the author. Here are my reasons: First, I believe we only see this manifestation of the Holy Spirit two (2) times in Scripture. Pentecost, and the household of Cornelius. The first time (Pentecost), was to get the Jews attention that God was fulfilling the prophecy of Joel (2:28,29). In fact, this is what Peter said the sign meant, after hearing the question: "what does this mean" in verse 12. Peter said, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel." Now, look at verse 17: "And it shall come to pass in last days (the KJ inserts the article "the" which is not in the original Greek: mankind, since the cross, has been living in "last days"), said God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: During Bible history, God has only looked upon two kinds of "flesh," Jew and Gentile. At Pentecost, the Jew recogonized this manifestation as "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11). Now, what do we see the apostles doing that they had not done before Pentecost? (speaking in languages that they had not known). Remember, these men had been "working wonders and signs" long before Pentecost. Matthew tells us in his Gospel, chapter 10: "And when he had called unto him his TWELVE APOSTLES (My emphasis), he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease; raise the dead: freely you have received freely give" (verses 1, 8). Let us look at John 20:20-23 again in light of what Jesus said to these men some fifty days BEFORE Pentecost, also, BEFORE He ascended back to the Father. "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I YOU" (again my emphasis). This is a specific statement to men who were about to be "sent into the world with the truth" (John 17:17-18), this is not a general statement that I often hear taught as instrustion for all disciples of Christ. How had Jesus been "sent?" Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Ma. 28:18). Now, Jesus speaking to the ten in the upper room: As the Father has sent me, even so send I you." Here, we see in John 20:22 the transfer of authority and power. "And when he had said this, he BREATHED on them, and said to them, Receive you the Holy Spirit: whosoever sins you remit, they have been remitted, and whosoever sins you retain, they have been retained." This, is AUTHORITY is it not? We see here in John 20:21-23 the ancient, near Eastern formula of a King giving authority to his ambassador's to carry on the King's will in his name. The Ambassador's then, as in today's world would be speaking with authority. This is why we know that on the day of Pentecost, Peter was speaking with authority when he spoke the plan of "remittence of sin." In Acts 2:38 upon being asked, "men and brethren, what shall we do?" Luke informs us: "three thousand souls, gladly received Peter's words and were baptized: and the same day were added unto them" (Acts 2:41). Good question: have you been "added" by the King? Those who did not receive Peter's (the Ambassador for the King) words, we must sumise: their sins were "retained." I note that the early church "continued steadfastly in the APOSTLES' doctrine. Why would they not? "Fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles" (Acts 2:43). Please note, Luke wrote that the apostles' were "working the many wonders and signs," nothing said about anyone else, or other Christians doing this. Very important piece of information taught here, that many today do not seem to understand. When was the last time you saw a disciple today "raise the dead?" Miracles were worked to verify the WORD. (Mark 16:20). We do not see the manifestation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost until Peter was "sent" to the household of Cornilus some ten years after Pentecost. Keep in mind, the church was made up of Jews for almost ten years after Pentecost: we would expect this since Jesus informed the apostles: "you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and Samaria, and unto all the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8). Did they do this? Paul reports: "yes, the hope of the gospel, which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; wherof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23, also Romans 10:13). We see the manifestation of the Holy Spirit at Caesarea to inform the Jew's that God was pouring out His Spirit upon the Gentiles. Peter recogonizes here in Caesarea that "God is no respector of persons: But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him. You might study at this time, the words of the King in Matthew 25:31-46 who Jesus (the King), recogonizes as "righteous," or "sheep." Interesting is it not, the "goats," or "unrighteous" do not "inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world." Why? We are taught here, through exegesis of the text, that the King will honored the work, or witness of His ambassador's, his apostoles'. What was it Jesus said in Matthew 10 about those who were "sent" to "preach that the kingdom was at hand"? "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet; he that receives you receives me, and he that receives me, receives him that sent me (God); He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet (Jesus) shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man (apostle) in the name of a righteous man (Jesus) shall receive a righteous man's reward (salvation); and whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." "I was thirsty and you gave me drink," said the King. We see in Matthew 25 how the King in going to separate the "sheep" from the "goats." He will recognize how one has accepted His word through the words of His apostles. "As the Father has sent me, even so, send I you." The King will take it very personal how one treats His ambassador's. Ambassador's, who Jesus prayed for in John 17:20. "Neither pray I for these alone (apostles), but for them also (you and me) which shall believe on me through their (apostles' doctrine) word." I can find no other verse in the New Testament that informs one on how to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, than "through their word." This is why we see Peter saying in Acts 11:15: "As I began to speak (words, wherby you and all your house shall be saved), the Holy Spirit fell on THEM (Gentiles), as on US (Jews) at the beginning. Notice that in the 10 year span from Pentecost until Caesarea, Peter had not seen this manifestation of the Holy Spirit. He informs the brethren at Jerusalem: "the Holy Spirit FELL on THEM, as on US................IN THE BEGINNING." This then, was not an every day occurance as taught by the charasmatic churches today. "Tounges were a sign for the unbeliever, not the believer" (1 Cor. 14:22). In the BEGINNING of what???..........."Last Days." Note again, Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:28,29). Yes Sandra, the kingdom came with power: Verified by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon Jew and Gentile, Now, God will recognize "new creatures in Christ" (2 Cor. 5:17) not flesh. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away: behold all things are become new. A question all mankind must ask: am I "IN Christ?" The Grace of God is "IN CHRIST JESUS."

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author.

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cristinolese
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 122

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Posted: Aug 15, 2006 11:08:23 AM
Fastpitch, The Natural Man (1 Cor 2:14) while declaring, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today," and "Jesus Christ is the truth," cannot fully comprehend, with human wisdom, that TRUTH yesterday is also true TODAY. Example: Who revealed to Abel that a simple "lamb" offering would be acceptable to God? There was no "literal" Pentecost then. God's revelation of His words, "do not pass away with time." The TRUTH in the Word is like a "shadow" that becomes a "reality," and this is but a "shadow" turning into "reality" again, and so on, until God realizes His plan of having companions in eternity. I hope you could fully comprehend this great revelation of God of His words. No wonder "only a few" can accept the following truth: 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us [b]able ministers of the new testament[/b]; [size=18]not of the letter[/size], but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, [size=18]but the spirit giveth life[/size]. [quote:8b68e46d37="Fastpitch"]Sandra, I read the article and I am not in agreement with the author. Here are my reasons: First, I believe we only see this manifestation of the Holy Spirit two (2) times in Scripture. Pentecost, and the household of Cornelius. The first time (Pentecost), was to get the Jews attention that God was fulfilling the prophecy of Joel (2:28,29). In fact, this is what Peter said the sign meant, after hearing the question: "what does this mean" in verse 12. Peter said, "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel." Now, look at verse 17: "And it shall come to pass in last days (the KJ inserts the article "the" which is not in the original Greek: mankind, since the cross, has been living in "last days"), said God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: During Bible history, God has only looked upon two kinds of "flesh," Jew and Gentile. At Pentecost, the Jew recogonized this manifestation as "the wonderful works of God" (Acts 2:11). Now, what do we see the apostles doing that they had not done before Pentecost? (speaking in languages that they had not known). Remember, these men had been "working wonders and signs" long before Pentecost. Matthew tells us in his Gospel, chapter 10: "And when he had called unto him his TWELVE APOSTLES (My emphasis), he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease; raise the dead: freely you have received freely give" (verses 1, 8). Let us look at John 20:20-23 again in light of what Jesus said to these men some fifty days BEFORE Pentecost, also, BEFORE He ascended back to the Father. "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I YOU" (again my emphasis). This is a specific statement to men who were about to be "sent into the world with the truth" (John 17:17-18), this is not a general statement that I often hear taught as instrustion for all disciples of Christ. How had Jesus been "sent?" Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Ma. 28:18). Now, Jesus speaking to the ten in the upper room: As the Father has sent me, even so send I you." Here, we see in John 20:22 the transfer of authority and power. "And when he had said this, he BREATHED on them, and said to them, Receive you the Holy Spirit: whosoever sins you remit, they have been remitted, and whosoever sins you retain, they have been retained." This, is AUTHORITY is it not? We see here in John 20:21-23 the ancient, near Eastern formula of a King giving authority to his ambassador's to carry on the King's will in his name. The Ambassador's then, as in today's world would be speaking with authority. This is why we know that on the day of Pentecost, Peter was speaking with authority when he spoke the plan of "remittence of sin." In Acts 2:38 upon being asked, "men and brethren, what shall we do?" Luke informs us: "three thousand souls, gladly received Peter's words and were baptized: and the same day were added unto them" (Acts 2:41). Good question: have you been "added" by the King? Those who did not receive Peter's (the Ambassador for the King) words, we must sumise: their sins were "retained." I note that the early church "continued steadfastly in the APOSTLES' doctrine. Why would they not? "Fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles" (Acts 2:43). Please note, Luke wrote that the apostles' were "working the many wonders and signs," nothing said about anyone else, or other Christians doing this. Very important piece of information taught here, that many today do not seem to understand. When was the last time you saw a disciple today "raise the dead?" Miracles were worked to verify the WORD. (Mark 16:20). We do not see the manifestation of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost until Peter was "sent" to the household of Cornilus some ten years after Pentecost. Keep in mind, the church was made up of Jews for almost ten years after Pentecost: we would expect this since Jesus informed the apostles: "you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and Samaria, and unto all the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8). Did they do this? Paul reports: "yes, the hope of the gospel, which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; wherof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:23, also Romans 10:13). We see the manifestation of the Holy Spirit at Caesarea to inform the Jew's that God was pouring out His Spirit upon the Gentiles. Peter recogonizes here in Caesarea that "God is no respector of persons: But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him. You might study at this time, the words of the King in Matthew 25:31-46 who Jesus (the King), recogonizes as "righteous," or "sheep." Interesting is it not, the "goats," or "unrighteous" do not "inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world." Why? We are taught here, through exegesis of the text, that the King will honored the work, or witness of His ambassador's, his apostoles'. What was it Jesus said in Matthew 10 about those who were "sent" to "preach that the kingdom was at hand"? "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet; he that receives you receives me, and he that receives me, receives him that sent me (God); He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet (Jesus) shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man (apostle) in the name of a righteous man (Jesus) shall receive a righteous man's reward (salvation); and whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." "I was thirsty and you gave me drink," said the King. We see in Matthew 25 how the King in going to separate the "sheep" from the "goats." He will recognize how one has accepted His word through the words of His apostles. "As the Father has sent me, even so, send I you." The King will take it very personal how one treats His ambassador's. Ambassador's, who Jesus prayed for in John 17:20. "Neither pray I for these alone (apostles), but for them also (you and me) which shall believe on me through their (apostles' doctrine) word." I can find no other verse in the New Testament that informs one on how to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, than "through their word." This is why we see Peter saying in Acts 11:15: "As I began to speak (words, wherby you and all your house shall be saved), the Holy Spirit fell on THEM (Gentiles), as on US (Jews) at the beginning. Notice that in the 10 year span from Pentecost until Caesarea, Peter had not seen this manifestation of the Holy Spirit. He informs the brethren at Jerusalem: "the Holy Spirit FELL on THEM, as on US................IN THE BEGINNING." This then, was not an every day occurance as taught by the charasmatic churches today. "Tounges were a sign for the unbeliever, not the believer" (1 Cor. 14:22). In the BEGINNING of what???..........."Last Days." Note again, Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:28,29). Yes Sandra, the kingdom came with power: Verified by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon Jew and Gentile, Now, God will recognize "new creatures in Christ" (2 Cor. 5:17) not flesh. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things have passed away: behold all things are become new. A question all mankind must ask: am I "IN Christ?" The Grace of God is "IN CHRIST JESUS."[/quote][size=12][/size][size=12][/size]
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Fastpitch
Joined Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 62
Location:Ohio

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Posted: Aug 15, 2006 9:41:33 PM
Thank you for your response; The "natural man" that Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is a man who is not inspired, as were the apostles. The "natural man" is one who MUST remain "steadfastly in the apostoles doctrine" to be a servant of God. (Acts 2:42). Am I a "natural man?" Yes. because I do not have the "mind of Christ." Are you a "natural man?" Yes, because you do not have "the mind of Christ." We must study apostolic doctrine. Or, as John wrote: "Let that therefore abide in you, which you have HEARD from the BEGINNING. If that which you have HEARD from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." This is an idiom for "hang on to the apostles doctrine, "eye witnesses," who have "the mind of Christ," who were with Him "from the BEGINNING!" Paul has said in verse 7-8: "But we (apostles) speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory. Which none of the teachers of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." You and I ONLY know Jesus Christ from the wisdom of the apostles. Have you written a revelation in the pages of the New Testament? Of course not: nor have I. The Lord has revealed His mind to the "eye witnesses" through the Holy Spirit. Read again John 15:26-27. Were you a "witness?' I know that I was not! Actually, you and I believe in Jesus Christ because we believe the written word: the Holy Scriptures. Think of a Gentile in Jerusalem on the day Jesus was crucified: what would he have known? Only that a man by the name of Jesus was crucified with two other men. Crucifixion by the Romans was carried out often: the name "Jesus" was a common name in Judaea. May I ask, what would this Gentile have known about the Life and Atoning Blood of this man "JESUS?" What would he have known about the Resurrection of this man JESUS? What would he have know about Justification, Sanctification, Redemption, and the plan of Salvation that was concealed in the mind of God? He would have know absolutely nothing. Why not? This get us back to 1 Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of a man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him." Paul would say, "For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified. He reminds those in the church at Corinth who were being taught by the "natural man" that has NOT received the Spirit of God. "But God has REVEALED them unto us (apostles) by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea the deep things of God." Peter writes: "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incrruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (1 Peter 1:23). This same Peter, who has "the mind of Christ," writes: "That you may be remindful of the WORDS which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the COMMANDMENTS of US the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:2). Paul has written to the immature Christians at Corinth, or "babes in Christ:" "I have feed you milk, and not with meat: for you were not able to hear it, and you are still too immature to hear my words." How embarrassing it must have been for the Apostle not to have been able to teach those at Corinth "meat." As today, we have too many Christians still on a "milk" diet.

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author.

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almario1
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 416

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Posted: Aug 16, 2006 5:27:11 PM
[u]excerpts from several [i]Fastpitch posts [/i][/u]> [i]This is an [b]idiom[/b] for "hang on to the apostles doctrine, "eye witnesses," who have "the mind of Christ," who were with Him "from the BEGINNING!" Why? We are taught here, through [b]exegesis[/b] of the text, that the King will honored the work, or witness of His ambassador's, his apostoles'. What was it Jesus said in Matthew 10 about those who were "sent" to "preach that the kingdom was at hand"? [b][i]Hermeneutics[/i] [/b]is the science of interpretation, and [b][i]Exegesis[/i][/b] is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining [b]the intended message[/b] [b]of the author. [b][size=18]GOD[/size] warns again and again as posted recently concerning these nonesense - [i]Hermeneutics[/i], [i]Exegesis[/i], [i]idiom[/i][/b] etc., etc., etc. [b]Colossians 2:8 [size=18]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.[/size][/b] [b][size=18]GOD[/size] is calling [/b]>> [i]Fastpitch, please heed on what[/i] [b][size=18]HE[/size] commanded to be written on the following:[/b] Rev 22:7 [b]Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. [/b] Rev 22:18 [b]For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:[/b] Rev 22:19 [b]And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. [/b] [b]Rev 20: 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/b]
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Fastpitch
Joined Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 62
Location:Ohio

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Posted: Aug 16, 2006 11:08:34 PM
I cannot imagine that terms such as "hermeneutics," "exegesis" and "idiom" have caused such a fuss. When does a "babe in Christ" finally get weand from "milk" and begin to eat the "meat" of the Word? At least we see some movement on this website:lol. It is refreshing to see dialogue other than that written before the year 2005. Would like to know your thoughts about God's "unconditional promise" to Ishmael in Genesis 17:20. Looks like Hezbollah is participating in God's plan to keep Ishmael in the land from the recent scurmish in Lebanon. As we know from Scripture, God promised to make Ishmael "a great nation." As we read Deuteronomy 18:64, "the Lord will scatter you (Jews) among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other," we learn that the child of promise, the descendants of Isaac will NOT REMAIN IN THE LAND! (Genesis 16:12. While Israel is scattered, dispersed and outcast, Ishmael will abide in the land promised to Hagar. Do we see Israel scattered in judgment today as chaff of the thrashing-floor? How about the seed of Ishmael? I see an immovable occupation, as immovable as Sinai. When God makes a promise, He expects the response of the obedience of faith, if the individual concerned is to possess the blessing. Question: What was the "promise" of Acts 2:39 again? You may want to "egegete" (new 'meat' word) Acts 2:37-41 again for this promise of obeidence. New study: When Peter speaks of "generation" in verse 40 of Acts 2, what generation was he speaking about? Now, you have to use "hermeneutics" and "exegesis" of test to know.....Begin with Matthew 3:7 and research Jesus' words to the "scribes and Pharisees" of Matthew 2313-36. Note the term "generation" used her by the Jesus (verses 33 and 36). What was going to happen to this "generation? When was this fulfilled? "Behold, your house is left unto you desolete." said our Lord.... History reveals this happened in 70 A.D. This leads one to know that Peter's message at Pentecost was the "funeral service" for national Israel. God had had it with Israel, Look at what Jesus said to the "chief priests and Pharisees in Matthew 21:33-45. Look again at who these men "preceived" Jesus spoke.... "of them." "This generation" was to see the boot of Rome "standing in the holy place." (Matthew 24:15). "Save yourselves from this crooked generation was Peter's plea to the "devout men out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5).

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author.

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almario1
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 416

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Posted: Aug 17, 2006 5:54:55 AM
Sir, It would really be a fuss because of inconsistency on your latest post. [i][u][b]Quote[/b][/u][/i]: As we know from Scripture, God promised to make Ishmael "a great nation." As we read [b]Deuteronomy 18:64[/b], "the Lord will scatter you (Jews) among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other," we learn that the child of promise, the descendants of Isaac will NOT REMAIN IN THE LAND! (Genesis 16:12. [i][b]Unquote[/b][/i]: [b]Deuteronomy chapter 18[/b] verses are up to 22 only. Ishmael was not even mentioned here. [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] WORDs of [b]Deuteronomy chapter 18[/b] for the last 4 verses was again a straightforward warning and so timely for this on going dialogue>> [b] Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.[/b] [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] warns again and again as posted recently concerning these nonesense - Hermeneutics, Exegesis, idiom etc., etc., etc. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] is calling >> [b]It is about time to heed.[/b] Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 20: 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Fastpitch
Joined Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 62
Location:Ohio

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Posted: Aug 17, 2006 9:37:29 AM
Sorry Almario1, Can you find it in your Christian heart to forgive me? You will find my quote about scattering the Jew in Deuteronomy 28:64 and in Genesis 17:20 you will find God's unconditional "promise" to Ishmael. Evidently, you never made it to the question I asked about the "promise" in Acts 2:39. You remind me of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 that Jesus rebuked, "Wow unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither do you help those who are trying to enter; you blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel" So, I made a mistake by one number, for that I should have taken greater care. You knew what I mean as you "strained at a gnat." Yet, you did not answer my question about the term "generation." No doubt, it was too meaty for you......Alimo, keep on drinking your milk.

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author.

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fil3232003
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 494

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Posted: Aug 17, 2006 10:27:16 AM
Fastpitch and Almario, I doubt whether you can understand each other. One of you is taking the “letter” while the other the “spirit” of the word. The way I see it, God is using historical characters and events, literal places, and other circumstances. But God intends to give the message that comes from Him only by “divine revelation.” Have we carefully noted the following? 1 Cor 2:11 For [size=18]what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him[/size]? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:12 Now we (1 cor. 2:15-16) have received, [size=18]not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God[/size]; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, [size=18]but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [/size] I suppose it is in this sense that it is written God speaks parables: Eze 20:49 Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables? Jesus Christ was prophesied to speak parables: Psa 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: True to the prophecy we read the following: Mar 4:34 [size=18]But without a parable spake he not [/size]unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things [size=18]to his disciples[/size]. Example: How factual are the Jews (Israelites) ever been slaves in Egypt? We only read about this in the Holy Bible and not in history books. The Jews themselves testify that they had never been slaves to anybody: Joh 8:33 They answered him, [b]We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man:[/b] how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [color=red][b]Jesus was speaking of SPIRITUAL FREEDOM from falsehood and deceptions,[/b][/color] and [color=blue][b]the Jews were thinking of political slavery. [/color][/b] Now the revelation given to Paul must be considered very carefully. 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able [u]ministers of the new testament[/u]; [b][color=blue]not of the letter[/color][/b], [b][color=red]but of the spirit[/color][/b]: [color=blue][b]for the letter k[/b]illeth[/color], but [b][color=red]the spirit giveth life[/color][/b]. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; [b][color=blue]the flesh profiteth nothing[/color][/b]: [color=red][b]the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit[/b][/color], and they are life. Very regrettable, this is ignored by the Christian world that caused its division into sects. To each sect is the understanding and interpretation of respective leaders. [size=12][/size][size=12][/size][size=12][/size][size=12][/size][size=12][/size]
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almario1
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 416

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Posted: Aug 17, 2006 5:36:11 PM
Dear Fastpitch, [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] WORDs of Spiritual Truth from HIS revelations deeply hurt emotionally/physically but enlightens and invigorates Spiritually. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [b]Jhn 6:63 [u]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.[/u] [/b] [b][u]quote[/u]:[/b] Sorry Almario1, Can you find it in your Christian heart to forgive me? .... Evidently, you never made it to the question I asked about the "promise" in Acts 2:39. You remind me of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 that Jesus rebuked, "Wow unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither do you help those who are trying to enter; you blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel" [b][u]unquote[/u]:[/b] Twice these were posted just for you. 1. [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] is calling >> Fastpitch, please heed on what HE commanded to be written on the following: 2. [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] is calling >> It is about time to heed. [b][u]How come that you conclude this with Matthew 23:13 by shutting up the kingdom against men ??[/u][/b] [b][u]quote[/u]:[/b] Evidently, you never made it to the question I asked about the "promise" in Acts 2:39. So, I made a mistake by one number, for that I should have taken greater care. You knew what I mean as you "strained at a gnat." Yet, you did not answer my question about the term "generation." No doubt, it was too meaty for you......Alimo, keep on drinking your milk. [b][u]unquote[/u]:[/b] [b]This forum is not just a question and abrupt answer dialogue for this would be just the same with the so-called bible based denominations, sects and congregations of today.[/b] [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] Words of Spiritual Truth from HIS revelations must not be taken in literally, physically, emotionally and much more so lightly. Your own applications of hermeneutics, exegesis, idiom, "egegete" (new 'meat' word) violently adulterate and superficially pollute [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] Words of Spiritual Truth as evidenced by too much head knowledges. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [b][i]excerpts from your posts >[/i] [/b] [b][u]quote[/u]:[/b] This is an idiom for "hang on to the apostles doctrine, "eye witnesses," who have "the mind of Christ," who were with Him "from the BEGINNING!" Why? We are taught here, through exegesis of the text, that the King will honored the work, or witness of His ambassador's, his apostoles'. What was it Jesus said in Matthew 10 about those who were "sent" to "preach that the kingdom was at hand"? [i]Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author. [b][u]unquote[/u]:[/b] [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] Words of Spiritual Truth only and warning that HE commanded to be written : Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 20: 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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almario1
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 416

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Posted: Aug 17, 2006 5:38:31 PM
Dear Fastpitch, [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] WORDs of Spiritual Truth from HIS revelations deeply hurt emotionally/physically but enlightens and invigorates Spiritually. Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [b]Jhn 6:63 [u]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.[/u] [/b] [b][u]quote[/u]:[/b] Sorry Almario1, Can you find it in your Christian heart to forgive me? .... Evidently, you never made it to the question I asked about the "promise" in Acts 2:39. You remind me of the Pharisees in Matthew 23 that Jesus rebuked, "Wow unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither do you help those who are trying to enter; you blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel" [b][u]unquote[/u]:[/b] Twice these were posted just for you. 1. [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] is calling >> Fastpitch, please heed on what HE commanded to be written on the following: 2. [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] is calling >> It is about time to heed. [b][u]How come that you conclude this with Matthew 23:13 by shutting up the kingdom against men ??[/u][/b] [b][u]quote[/u]:[/b] Evidently, you never made it to the question I asked about the "promise" in Acts 2:39. So, I made a mistake by one number, for that I should have taken greater care. You knew what I mean as you "strained at a gnat." Yet, you did not answer my question about the term "generation." No doubt, it was too meaty for you......Alimo, keep on drinking your milk. [b][u]unquote[/u]:[/b] [b]This forum is not just a question and abrupt answer dialogue for this would be just the same with the so-called bible based denominations, sects and congregations of today.[/b] [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] Words of Spiritual Truth from HIS revelations must not be taken in literally, physically, emotionally and much more so lightly. Your own applications of hermeneutics, exegesis, idiom, "egegete" (new 'meat' word) violently adulterate and superficially pollute [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] Words of Spiritual Truth as evidenced by too much head knowledges. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [b][i]excerpts from your posts >[/i] [/b] [b][u]quote[/u]:[/b] This is an idiom for "hang on to the apostles doctrine, "eye witnesses," who have "the mind of Christ," who were with Him "from the BEGINNING!" Why? We are taught here, through exegesis of the text, that the King will honored the work, or witness of His ambassador's, his apostoles'. What was it Jesus said in Matthew 10 about those who were "sent" to "preach that the kingdom was at hand"? [i]Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author. [b][u]unquote[/u]:[/b] [b][size=18]GOD[/size][/b] Words of Spiritual Truth only and warning that HE commanded to be written : Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 20: 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Fastpitch
Joined Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 62
Location:Ohio

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Posted: Aug 17, 2006 8:10:15 PM
Almario1, You write that "God is calling." I say that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10). The Word of God is to be studied (2 Timothy 2:15). Its meaning doe not jusy come to you as if turning on a light. Example: Paul's dichotomy of faith verses works compared to that set forth by James. Read Romans 3:19-28; James 2:14-26. I have brought to the forums attention many times that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit first mentioned in Matthew 3 by John the Baptist is never spoken of as a "blessing," but as a "Judgment." Now, I ask anyone on this forum to quote me a verse in the Holy Scriptures informing me where the Baptism 'WITH' the Holy Spirit is a blessing. Did Paul ever infer that he was "Baptized 'WITH' the Holy Spirit? If so, please give me chapter and verse. In sound hermeneutics, the etymological meaning of a word must give place to the current established usage by the author. To determine the usage of a word, consult its occurrence in literature, and depend most on those nearest the passage in point of contexy. authorship, date and character of the composition. Example of word change in the Bible: John 15:26 we see Helper or Comforter. John 16:7 (paraclete). Now look at other appearance in Scripture: 1 John 2:1 we find "Advocate." The word "Advocate" is used as "Intercessor" in the writing of Philo; in Classic Greek: "attorney at law." "Parables" are mentioned by someone on the forum: Parables must be interpreted with the understanding that Jesus was teaching about Messianic ministry and that Jesus was announcing the presence of the Kingdom. Did He not preach that "the kingdom was at hand?" Did He not send his apostles out "two by two" preaching "the kingdom was at hand?" What was John the Baptist's message in Matthew 3? This too, was the emphasis of the parables In studying the parables of Jesus one must practice exegetical principles: In most parables, the interpreter should seek to identify the "one central truth." The interpreter must determine how Jesus Himself interpreted the parable if the information is available. The interpreter must identify available information from the context as it points to the meaning of the parable (e.g., Luke 15:1-2). The interpreter must consider Old Testament and intertestamental elements as points of reference.

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author.

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fil3232003
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 494

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Posted: Aug 18, 2006 9:04:27 AM
Dear Fastpitch and Almario1, As I have written, I am sure you can never have a meeting of minds on the discussion of the word of God. Is there agreement between you on the truth of the following? 2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us [u]able ministers of the new testament[/u]; [b][color=blue]not of the letter[/color][/b], [b][color=red]but of the spirit[/color][/b]: [color=blue][b]for the letter killeth[/b][/color], [b][color=red]but the spirit giveth life[/color][/b]. For the word, “baptism” alone, one of you could be limited to the [color=blue]“letter”[/color] while the other to the “[color=red]spirit[/color]” of the word. I think for you to understand each other, you must first be exempted from the rebuke of our Lord in: Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: [size=18]if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.[/size][size=12][/size]
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Fastpitch
Joined Aug 08, 2006
Posts: 62
Location:Ohio

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Posted: Aug 21, 2006 6:07:32 AM
Fil... In John 8:19, Jesus is speaking to Jews who did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. When interpreting scripture, please do not take a verse out of context. Did not Jesus say in verse 19: "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keep the law?" So please, exegesis the text before you make such an unwarrented accusation. I am not a Jew. You have made the same errow in 2 Corinthians 3:6. Here, Paul is informing the church at Corinth that HE is an able minister of the "New Covenant," the Spirit." not of the "letter," or Old Covenant." Paul is saying, "The Old Testament (letter) kills," but the New Testament (Spirit), gives life. Paul goes on to tell the Christian in verse 7 that "the ministration of DEATH, written and engraved on stones" was glorious, so that the children of Israel (which I am not) could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which was was to be done away." So, the letter that kills (Old Covenant) has no bearing on my life. It has been "done away." "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, and Exegesis is the pratical appliance of the rules or principles of this science in determining the intended message of the author.

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fil3232003
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 494

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Posted: Aug 21, 2006 9:23:23 AM
Fastpitch... I would like to hear from people professing to KNOW Jesus Christ who, actually, have different recognitions of Him: * Some say, "Jesus is only a man and not God" * Others say, "Jesus is only a minor or mighty God for there is a Supreme or Almighty God" * Still others say, "Jesus Christ is the name of the Father and the Holy Spirit" * Many people say, "Jesus Christ is both God and man, and He is the second person of the Trinity." May I know from you who JESUS CHRIST is before "coming in the flesh?" This is the purpose of the following "test for spirits." 1 Joh 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because [b]many false prophets [/b]are gone out into the world. 1 Joh 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:[b] [color=red]Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God[/color][/b]: 1 Joh 4:3 And [b][color=blue]every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God[/color]:[/b] and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. All people I cited "confess Jesus Christ is come in the flesh."
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