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Upon This Rock - Part I

- What is the other “name” of Peter?

- Who/what is the “rock?”

- What is the Church?

- What does Jesus mean by “the gates of hell?”

 

Aug 07, 2005

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Freewill in our Physical/Spiritual Lives

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Steve
Joined Oct 27, 2005
Posts: 74
Location:Chicago

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Posted: Feb 07, 2006 2:10:54 AM
Who can resist His will? Our faith, what we believe is not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. Do we make ourselves into little children or does He? Jesus chose the 12 disciplies knowing one of them had to fulfill the plan of betraying Him. We only come to Christ because He draws us unto Himself.
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beyond_smoke
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 924

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Posted: Feb 07, 2006 2:18:05 AM
Strange as it may seem there are many today who insist that they believe in salvation by grace, yet they insist that man has the power to "make a decision for Christ." They argue that "God loves everyone, equally and alike," yet they are sure that He is going to send some people to hell for ever. They affirm that the Bible teaches that the Creator of all things is surely omnipotent, but they are also quite confident that finite man is fully capable of obstructing the will of God. In nearly every case the problem lies in the fact that these dear people do not know Bible truth. They have heard nothing from their pulpits but "plan of salvation" sermons minus the wonderful truths which make up the plan! If they were asked to explain the meaning of such doctrines as redemption, propitiation, reconciliation, remission, and atonement, they would either mutter trivia or be absolutely speechless. Why? Because they have never been taught, nor have they had the spiritual vigor necessary to discover for themselves, what Scripture actually teaches about the work of Christ. There is one thing they hold in common: the confidence that man can use his own "positive volition" or "free will" to accept Christ and get himself "saved." Someone will ask, "Will God save men eventually against their will?" The answer is no! He will have to need to do that, for all men will be one hundred percent willing when God reveals Himself to them. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped, and the doors of the prisonhouse shall be opened. We have only to consider the case of Saul of Tarsus to understand the miraculous power of the Lord to change the leopard's spots and melt the heart of stone. There are those who suppose that God could not convert a soul unless that depraved and lost soul gives to almighty God that permission. I only wish they would ask the apostle Paul, that great despiser of Christ and hater of His Church, that persecutor of Christians, who while on his way to Damascus was suddenly cast to the ground and converted. No man was ever more hateful toward Christ than was Saul of Tarsus, yet, when his turn came to see the light, he changed in an instant, crying out in fear and trembling and with bitter repentance, "Who art You, Lord?" and "What will You have me to do?" Did God ask Saul of Tarsus whether or not he wanted to be saved? Or did He say to Ananias, "He is a chosen vessel unto Me to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15)? It is only God who can change the human heart, and when God wills to change every single human heart in earth and in hell, each will be changed in an instant. Some suppose that God is desperately trying to convert every human being in the world ... ah, but He cannot do it, because mighty man, sovereign man, will not allow it! Jehovah does all of His pleasure. As I have purposed so shall it come to pass," says the Lord. Where do these man-made preachers get the notion that man is a FREE MORAL AGENT? Indeed, he may be free in some minor things that concern his personal conduct, but concerning God's eternal purpose for him HE IS NOT FREE to do his own will, for "it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLS or HIM THAT RUNS, BUT GOD THAT SHOWS MERCY" (Rom. 9:16). God in His great mercy has condescended to extend mercy to all men, He sent His Son to die for all men, to redeem all men, to reconcile all back to God, and in due time He sent also His Holy Spirit to invincibly draw them unto Himself. In the day of the power of God, men are made willing and, having been quickened by that Spirit, renewed in mind, having been given a heart of flesh, they do come most willingly, having been made willing BY HIS POWER. What an exalted view is this of our OMNIPOTENT GOD AND SAVIOR! There is an overwhelming desire in my heart that God's precious people might know that GOD IS GOD, glorious in power, fearful in praises, DOING WONDERS. I long with a great longing that His people will repent of ever having believed the insipid and useless traditions that make the almighty God seem to be a victim of the will of His own creation. It is my opinion that most of the theology of the church system is stupid prattle that seeks to render the almighty God impotent by robbing Him of His omnipotence. It teaches that God gave His Son that all the world through Him might be saved and then renders His sacrifice hopeless by leaving ninety-nine percent of all His creatures in the hands of the devil for all eternity. Such a doctrine as that belittles the power and wisdom of God and does despite to the Spirit of grace, the atoning work of Christ, and the precious blood that He shed so that the world through Him might be saved. Such a doctrine as that is, undoubtedly, one of the "doctrines of devils" of which Paul warned. I say that because I cannot think of anyone outside of the devil himself who would be happy with the prospect that Calvary was such a colossal failure! But the preachers, including some who profess to be in the "Kingdom Message," would lay down their lives for such an abominable heresy! In Luke 15:4 we read, "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, does not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness and go after that which is lost UNTIL HE FIND IT?" In this passage we find that at the end of the day, the shepherd finds that he is just one little sheep short of completeness. There is only one outside - so why bother to go after that one, for perhaps that one is one of the rebellious ones anyway and will not choose to come back! But the Shepherd we are dealing with in this story is not an ordinary shepherd. This is the Great and Good Shepherd of the sheep and nothing will stop Him or prevent Him from finding that last sheep. This Shepherd will not be content with even an extraordinary effort to find the sheep and then give up, feeling that He has done His duty. Neither does He "call" the sheep, and then wait to see if the sheep decides to come, and if not, just leave him there in his lost condition to die. This Shepherd searches UNTIL HE FINDS. And the FINDING of this Shepherd is not only the locating of the sheep, but it also includes the bringing back into the fold of that sheep. If you know anything at all about sheep, you know that a sheep is helpless to find its way back to the rest of the flock. Not only that, but it becomes subject to every danger that is near to it, yet it never recognizes that danger. This is exactly the condition of mankind today. Mankind, being dead in trespasses and sins and in rebellion against God, does not know how to get to God. In fact much of humanity does not even think of getting to God. They have come to the point where they are quite satisfied with their condition just as the sheep is satisfied with its condition as it feeds, knowing now that it is lost. Mankind does not know the way back to God. Mankind must wait until IT IS FOUND. He does not even know he is lost. How will the lost ever come to God of himself, of his own "free will"? If he were able to come HE WOULD NOT BE LOST. Men do not even know they are lost, or where they are going. Ah, the Shepherd must find the sheep, and not the sheep find the Shepherd! And Jesus said the Shepherd would seek until. Jesus said He came to seek and to save those lost ones. Not the lost ones seek God but GOD SEEK THE LOST! Most of the religious teaching today would have us believe that Christ has done all He can for the sinner, so He has now gone back to His heaven and is seated upon His golden throne waiting for all who will to be saved. According to this thinking, God through Jesus has done all He can possibly do and has now left the work of saving souls to the Church, hoping that some, at least, will be persuaded to accept the Saviour. The Church must go out and contact all the sinners they can and see if they cannot get them to "accept Christ." But, of course, if the sinner does not want to be saved, then even God in all His power cannot intervene and nothing is left but eternal hell fire and damnation for that sinner. But just what does this line of reasoning reveal? The tragedy of it is that it shows us nothing but a POWERFUL MANKIND and a WEAK GOD! Another thing this line of teaching suggests is that God, having finished the work of redemption, then turns it all over to a rather carnal Church that does not truly know God, does not even understand God's great plan of the ages, and cares far more about making proselytes to a denomination than in bringing people into a living relationship with Jesus Christ. The average Church today cares more about its programs, its missionary efforts, its buildings, its committee meetings and its budget than it does about making known to the world the glad news that God has reconciled the whole world to Himself and He shall not rest until every heart has surrendered and the very last sheep has been carried back to the fold. Nothing stops or hinders this Shepherd, for if He did fail in this effort, He could never rest knowing that one of His sheep was lost and eternally destroyed. He does not send anyone else or leave it to the sheep to find its way back. HE HIMSELF GOES UNTIL HE FINDS. Let us have these things right and straight in our minds. Let us see these things correctly. Nothing is left in any way to chance. The Shepherd sends no one out to look for the sheep, but goes Himself. Granted, HE GOES THROUGH HIS BODY, but He is not sitting idly by to see what will happen. His mission goes on until it is one hundred percent successful and the LAST ONE is found. Nothing will stop the work of the Shepherd until that last sheep is made to correctly know the Shepherd, who He is, and His great love for him. The Shepherd DOES SEEK until He finds the last one, no matter how long it takes or to what depths He must search! Someone will ask, "But doesn't God command sinners to CHOOSE this day whom they will serve and to SEEK the Lord while He may be found?" ABSOLUTELY NOT! Oh, yes, the Scripture does say, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the god of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" (Jos. 24:15). But those words were never spoken to the unsaved man, without God and without hope in the world; these were the words of God's prophet to Israel, GOD'S PEOPLE, as they possessed the promised land! God has nowhere, in all the pages of His blessed Book, commanded unconverted sinners to "choose" between Him and anything else. DEAD MEN DON'T MAKE CHOICES. And yes, the Scripture does say, "SEEK THE LORD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND, call upon Him while He is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon" (Isa. 55:6-7). But again, these words were never addressed to the sinner who never had a relationship with the Lord. They were thundered by the prophet Isaiah to GOD'S BACKSLIDING PEOPLE in a time of spiritual declension and apostasy. It is God's own people who must "seek" the Lord, not the man who is lost and cannot find his way. Thus it is that Jesus said, "For the Son of man is come to SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST" (Lk. 19:10). It is the Lord's people who are called upon to "choose" between Him and the ways of the flesh, the world, and the devil, not the man who is dead, for "the dead know not anything" (Eccl. 9:5), and are totally incapable of choosing anything but sin. The popular Churches ridiculously assert that spiritually dead men must somehow "choose" the Lord, but God's testimony about it is just the opposite. The bluntest affirmation that man does not do the choosing of God is that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself testified, "You have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU" (Jn. 15:16). In fact, according to Paul, that choice was made by God before He ever made so much as one single thing! "According as HE HAS CHOSEN US in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4). It is tantamount to blasphemy for anyone to argue that man is capable, of his own "free will," to make a decision for Christ. Note the testimony of Luke: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the Word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). The Lord Jesus insists that Life and Faith are the work of God, not the work of man. He said....... the Son gives life to whom He will" and "this is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom God has sent" (Jn. 6:29; 5:21). In all fairness, the evangelist who says to the crowd, "Whosoever comes to Jesus will in no wise be cast out," should add the preceding words of Christ: "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me" (Jn. 6:37). Who is it that will not be cast out? All who come to Him! Who, then, will come to the Saviour? He says, "All whom the Father gives Me." The choice as to who will come to Christ at any given moment is God's, not man's. God does not call all men at the same time. Some are ordained to eternal life, right now, while others will be called later. "For as in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER..." (I Cor. 15:22-23). If it were left up to man he would NEVER BELIEVE, for man is totally depraved, totally incapable of that which is good. Left on his own to make a decision for Christ, without first being given life and faith by an act of God, man would never of his own "free will" come to Jesus. "You will not come to Me, that you might have life" (Jn. 5:40). 'Tis not I that did choose You. For, Lord, that could not be: This heart would still refuse You, Had You not chosen me! In the true and eloquent words of another, "Let me interject a foundational truth here. It is a truth seldom, if ever, heard among the people of God. The preachers and evangelists studiously avoid it, but it is fundamental to all our understanding of the work of God in this present age. It is a truth given by no less an authority than God's only begotten Son. The following three Scriptures vividly point out God's method of choosing those who are elected to be saved in this age and in the ages to come: First, 'No man can come to Me except the Father which has sent Me draw him' (Jn. 6:44). The second is this: 'All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me; and him that comes unto Me I will in no wise cast out' (Jn. 6:37). And the third is: 'Father, the hour is come; glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You: as You have given Him power (authority) over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many (all flesh) as You have given Him' (Jn. 17:1-2). Christians blindly strive under the mistaken idea that, if they will only meet certain conditions, God will reply by bringing every man into the fold of Christ in this present age. My friend, this is a very great error. It is about as far from the truth as anything could possibly be. God does not intend to bring all men into the fold now. If that were His intention, He could do it with but one word of His omnipotence. When God's eternal voice speaks, saying, 'Let there be light,' then light immediately floods the universe as it did in the beginning. There is no need for a candle nor the light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. That light could not be matched by ten thousand suns, for the light that shone out of darkness in the beginning is the same light that lightens every man that comes into the world. It is the light that shines into the benighted souls, bringing the life of the ages to men who are sleeping in death. 'Lazarus, come forth!' called the Lord, and a dead man sprang from his tomb to reply. 'Saul! Saul!' Jesus called to a disconsolate and determined persecutor, and he quickly replied, 'Lord, what wilt You have me to do?' And so will it be when He calls you, your child, your husband, or your wife with His still small voice, speaking to the inner ear. Whether it be John, George, Henry, Joan, Phyllis, or Louise, all will fall at His feet in penitence and brokenness the moment He speaks, crying, 'Here am I, Lord! What wilt You have me to do?' "It is useless to try to gather all the world into the Kingdom in this dispensation, for that is not God's purpose in this age. No man comes except the Father draw him. Those who insist on bringing all the world in now are trying to do in this age the work that God Himself has said should be done in the dispensation of the fullness of times. In the dispensation of the fullness of times, His immutable Word has declared, He will gather all things into Christ, both which are in heaven and in earth, even in Him (Eph. 1:10). 'ALL that the Father has given Me SHALL COME to Me,' said Jesus, and you may be sure that this is the truth. At the end of this age there will not be one soul missing of all that number of the 'firstfruits' who were predestined to come to Him, and, when the age to come has run its course, there will not be one missing of all who are appointed to come to Him in that blessed age. So also may we declare for that wonderful AGE OF THE AGES, the dispensation of the fullness of the times, for God's Word has faithfully declared that in that glorious age of all ages every missing sheep will be accounted for as God gathers together in one the all things into Christ " -end quote. Some have tried to say that in Eph. 1:10 the things gathered into one in the Christ are limited to those things already in Christ, that is, that it is all things that are "in Christ" that are gathered "into one." That is a mistake that those who oppose the ultimate salvation of all men are only too eager to make, and the error comes from a faulty understanding of what is actually said due to the wording in the King James version. ALL OTHER VERSIONS OF THE SCRIPTURES CLEARLY SHOW THAT SUCH IS NOT THE CASE. It is not "all things in Christ" that are gathered "into one." It is ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH GATHERED INTO ONENESS IN AND UNDER THE CHRIST. The Amplified Bible says, "He planned for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to UNIFY ALL THINGS and head them up and CONSUMMATE THEM IN CHRIST, both things in heaven and things on earth." The Moffatt translation reads, "It was the purpose of His design to so order it in the fullness of the ages that ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND EARTH alike should be gathered up in Christ." J. B. Phillips renders, "He purposed long ago in His sovereign will that all human history should be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in heaven or earth should find its perfection and fulfillment in Him." We could go on from version to version and they all with one voice show that in the dispensation of the fullness of times God shall gather together into one, into the Christ, ALL THINGS AND ALL BEINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH. From age to age, those that the Father has given the Christ in each age, will come to Him, praise His name. When the last and crowning age is ended ALL shall have been gathered together into the Christ. What anticipation and joy this stirs in our hearts!
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ric32bailey
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 84

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Posted: Feb 07, 2006 7:25:28 AM
I think the question regarding Foreknowledge and Free Will, with much feedback already posted on the subject, should now be put to rest. I could sense recent postings are just repetitions of what have been written already. How about waiting for Gods revelation to each of us on the truth? After all the Disciples waited for around 3 years when they heard our Lord speak, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it. Instead, may I suggest we now go to my question regarding Gods covering with coats of skins of Adam and Eve after the fall, that I suppose meant the garment of salvation, and then denying them access to the Tree of Life thereafter.
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mrwilson37
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 172

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Posted: Feb 07, 2006 10:54:29 AM
If we will rely on story itself for sure we will fall, there is no doubt on that. Like in the case of Peter. He recognized Jesus in Matthew 16:16-17 where in fact pentecostes happened in Acts 2:1-4.How couldPeter recognized Jesus if Holy ghost was not with him. It only shows that Precept must be upon Precept. Line upon Line. [b][i]ric32bailey &lt;bibletalk@purechristianity.org&gt;[/i][/b] wrote: [quote]I think the question regarding Foreknowledge and Free Will, with much feedback already posted on the subject, should now be put to rest. I could sense recent postings are just repetitions of what have been written already. How about waiting for Gods revelation to each of us on the truth? After all the Disciples waited for around 3 years when they heard our Lord speak, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it. Instead, may I suggest we now go to my question regarding Gods covering with coats of skins of Adam and Eve after the fall, that I suppose meant the garment of salvation, and then denying them access to the Tree of Life thereafter. [/quote] Relax. Yahoo! Mail [url=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/viruscc/*http://communications.yahoo.com/features.php?page=221]virus scanning[/url] helps detect nasty viruses!
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adlemsot
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 290

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Posted: Feb 07, 2006 11:17:08 AM
Just for the sake of a good discussion Steve, can you please tell us what should it be with Paul if he disobeyed Jesus? Remember Judas Iscariote? But if you think this is too much for me to persist in asking you, then let just this one be put to rest. [b][i]Steve Jorns &lt;bibletalk@purechristianity.org&gt;[/i][/b] wrote: [quote]Adlemi, Not even Paul can resist the LORD's will. I think Jonah is a good example of this truth. The LORD's will for Jonah was to preach to Ninevah and Jonah ran from it but in the end he fulfilled God's plan because it was God's will. [quote] From:Adlemi Sotnas Reply-To:bibletalk@purechristianity.org To:bibletalk@purechristianity.org Subject:RE: Freewill in our Physical/Spiritual Lives Date:Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:10:06 -0700 &gt; Steve wrote: &gt; ______________________ &gt; &gt; It is written if we are to glory, glory in the LORD. Not in ourselves. &gt; &gt; ______________________ &gt; &gt; Yes, I agree. &gt; &gt; &gt; Steve wrote: &gt; ______________________ &gt; The LORD saved Paul because the Paul was the Lord's chosen vessel before the foundation of the world. &gt; &gt; ______________________ &gt; &gt; What if Paul did not religiously obey the Lord somewhere prior to Paul's death, did the Lord still save Paul? I just ask you this on the premise that even if the Lord chose Paul as His vessel, still itwas Paul's free will at stake here if he had to follow or not the command of the Lord to him. Ihope you understand what I mean. &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Steve Jorns wrote: &gt; &gt; &gt; Adlemi, &gt; &gt; It is written if we are to glory, glory in the LORD. Not in ourselves. The LORD saved Paul because the Paul was the Lord's chosen vessel before the foundation of the world. &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;From:Adlemi Sotnas &gt; &gt; &gt;Reply-To:bibletalk@purechristianity.org &gt; &gt; &gt;To:bibletalk@purechristianity.org &gt; &gt; &gt;Subject:RE: Freewill in our Physical/Spiritual Lives &gt; &gt; &gt;Date:Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:15:45 -0700 &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Steve wrote: &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ____________________ &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Paul recognizesthat he is who he is because of God's grace, not because of his own doing or his own choices. &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ____________________ &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; You seem to insinuate here that we must not be boastful of our doing, do I perceive you right? But what about salvation, what fordid God save Paul? WithPaul doing nothing at all, willGod still save him? &gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; [/quote] [/quote]
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Steve
Joined Oct 27, 2005
Posts: 74
Location:Chicago

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Posted: Feb 08, 2006 2:49:03 AM
What if Paul disobeyed Jesus you ask. Because Paul was a chosen vessel of God's and God works in us to will and fulfill His purpose, Paul could not disobey. Did Judas disobey? The Potter makes some unto honor and some unto dishonor. Judas fulfilled the fact that Christ was going to be betrayed.
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sandra3102
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 220

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Posted: Feb 08, 2006 5:41:11 AM
How about King Saul who did not overcome (Rev. 3:5) unlike Judas where it is stated that God has a specific purpose for his loss? [quote:1d003e58fc="Steve"]What if Paul disobeyed Jesus you ask. Because Paul was a chosen vessel of God's and God works in us to will and fulfill His purpose, Paul could not disobey. Did Judas disobey? The Potter makes some unto honor and some unto dishonor. Judas fulfilled the fact that Christ was going to be betrayed.[/quote]
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adlemsot
Joined Jul 21, 2005
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Posted: Feb 08, 2006 12:14:42 PM
[quote] Steve wrote: [quote] What if Paul disobeyed Jesus you ask. Because Paul was a chosen vessel of God's and God works in us to will and fulfill His purpose, Paul could not disobey. Did Judas disobey? The Potter makes some unto honor and some unto dishonor. Judas fulfilled the fact that Christ was going to be betrayed. [/quote] Steve, are you insinuating some sort of pre-destination in sayingJudas fulfilled the fact that Christ was going to be betrayed? What did Judas use to fulfill the betrayal of Christ? Did Judas do it as if he was a programmed like a robot?If you can, please further elaborate your last sentence. [/quote]
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Steve_Jorns1
Joined Jul 21, 2005
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Posted: Feb 09, 2006 2:04:51 AM
What about King Saul? Even he cannot resist God's will. [quote] From:[i]"sandra3102" &lt;bibletalk@purechristianity.org&gt;[/i] Reply-To:[i]bibletalk@purechristianity.org[/i] To:[i]bibletalk@purechristianity.org[/i] Subject:[i]RE: Freewill in our Physical/Spiritual Lives[/i] Date:[i]Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:41:12 -0700[/i] [quote]How about King Saul who did not overcome (Rev. 3:5) unlike Judas where it is stated that God has a specific purpose for his loss? Steve wrote: &gt; What if Paul disobeyed Jesus you ask. Because Paul was a chosen vessel of God's and God works in us to will and fulfill His purpose, Paul could not disobey. Did Judas disobey? The Potter makes some unto honor and some unto dishonor. Judas fulfilled the fact that Christ was going to be betrayed. [/quote] [/quote]
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Steve_Jorns1
Joined Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 362

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Posted: Feb 09, 2006 2:06:06 AM
Judas fulfilled the will of Him(The Potter)who is JUST and PERFECT in everything. [quote] From:[i]Adlemi Sotnas &lt;bibletalk@purechristianity.org&gt;[/i] Reply-To:[i]bibletalk@purechristianity.org[/i] To:[i]bibletalk@purechristianity.org[/i] Subject:[i]RE: Freewill in our Physical/Spiritual Lives[/i] Date:[i]Tue, 07 Feb 2006 21:14:43 -0700[/i] [quote] &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Steve wrote: &gt; &gt; &gt;What if Paul disobeyed Jesus you ask. Because Paul was a chosen vessel of God's and God works in us to will and fulfill His purpose, Paul could not disobey. Did Judas disobey? The Potter makes some unto honor and some unto dishonor. Judas fulfilled the fact that Christ was going to be betrayed. &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Steve, are you insinuating some sort of pre-destination in sayingJudas fulfilled the fact that Christ was going to be betrayed? What did Judas use to fulfill the betrayal of Christ? Did Judas do it as if he was a programmed like a robot?If you can, please further elaborate your last sentence. &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; [/quote] [/quote]
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